Testing the Waters of Polyamory

featuring life & relationship coach Alyssa Keegan
and artist & thru hiker Alina Drufovka

Polyamory is something that, like many topics within sexuality, can carry a lot of misconceptions, judgement, and shame. But it’s also one of many types of relationship structures that we as humans have access to, so it’s not as far removed from your sexuality as you might have thought up until now. 

If polyamory feels unfamiliar or uncomfortable for you to discuss aloud, tune into this episode to dip a toe in the water. You’ll hear not only some tips and insights from whole-person life and relationship coach Alyssa Keegan, but also explore some of the ways polyamory intersects with the outdoors through the eyes of thru hiker and artist Alina Drufkova.

This insight-dense episode is the first of many conversations we’ll have on the show about polyamory, so join us and let’s learn together.

Featured in this Episode:

Alyssa Keegan


Alina Drufovka

Additional Resources:

Let’s be friends:


Hosted by Laura Borichevsky.
Cover artwork by Hailey Hirst.
Music by The Wild Wild, UTAH, and LWFI, licensed via MusicBed.

TRANSCRIPT

Note: This transcript was lightly edited and created using a transcription service. As such it may contain spelling errors.

Alina Drufovka:

I was only 19 years old and I actually was trying to hike the Appalachian trail that summer, basically every summer, all I tried to do was hike the trail. But when I was really young, you know, my mom was like, “Oh, you have to find someone to go with you and this and that.” And that I could never find anyone who wanted to commit to hiking all summer for several months. And so the commune was always a Plan B interest. And at the time I was in college studying sociology and I always figured, “Oh, maybe I'll study communes and polyamory. And it's a really interesting topic from a sociological perspective.” For whatever reason, it was way less daunting to my family. For me as a 19 year old woman to take a train down alone to Virginia, then go off hiking in the woods by myself.

Laura Borichevsky (narration): 

Alina Drufovka took a hands-on approach to learning about polyamory when she was in college. Instead of hiking the Appalachian Trail that summer (which she would do later on, nearly twice), she decided to pursue another experience that had been on her mind casually for some time but she hadn’t made any plans around-- at least not in the same way she had been planning for the Trail.

Do you ever make a decision somewhat spur-of-the-moment, only to realize later on how transformational it was? Well, it seems like for Alina this was one of those times.

Alina Drufovka:

But it was kind of an impulse decision. All my plans were falling through that summer and I looked up this one community and since twin Oaks is one of the largest and oldest communities, I thought that'd be a really great place to start.

Laura Borichevsky (narration): 

Twin Oaks is an intentional community based in the US state of Virginia. Taking a look at their website, you’ll learn that the community is full of about 100 people ranging widely in age, and has been around since the late 60’s, thriving off values ranging from cooperation and nonviolence to equality and ecology. They make hammocks and tofu to generate income. They consider themselves an eco village and are incredibly self-sufficient when it comes to energy and agriculture. There’s nothing that shouts “polyamory” on their website-- nor does there need to be. But from her studies and research, Alina knew enough about Twin Oaks to be familiar with their visitor program. 

Alina Drufovka:

I sent them an email, just like a little letter introducing myself. And they're like, “yeah, come on down to Virginia.”

Laura Borichevsky (narration): 

Here’s something you need to know as we dive into this episode: well before the launch of this show, polyamory has been *the* number one requested topic that we open up conversations about through the podcast. But you wouldn’t know that from the outside— because it’s all come in the forms of private DMs and emails. There is so much shame wrapped up in talking about polyamory openly that it feels somewhat palpable.

And just like *every* topic in sexuality, gender, & relationships— if we don’t see others talking about it, we get the impression that we can’t explore it, can’t learn about it, can’t share our experiences, can’t ask questions.

In short: it’s incredibly hard to establish safety in silence.

But it might comfort you to know that, ALSO like every topic in this realm, there is a connection to nature and the outdoors. In fact, when it comes to polyamory, there are many. Whether it’s intentional communities built up as eco villages that create safe, secluded spaces for people to practice polyamory, the way many experts look to polyamory as a natural state for humans to exist biologically, or just the mere fact that our sexuality is a part of our whole selves, and the way we are connected to nature is an inherent part of all that-- addressing polyamory, even reflecting upon it, is something that more of us are likely actively suppressing than we care to admit.

I look forward to the day that our gut instincts are a lot like that of Alina’s at age 19-- that we collectively act on our curiosities about sex with questions out in the open, and recognizing that taking the time to learn doesn’t mean automatic commitment but rather deepened understanding of others and ourselves— but that said, the weight of shame we feel around sexuality is a byproduct of the systems we live under, and seeing change requires a lot of work-- and a lot of unlearning-- from all of us.

So luckily, in the meantime— we can start today. And there are lots of professionals and people with first-hand experience who are *very* willing to share their knowledge and expertise when it comes to navigating polyamory. Whether it’s something meant for you at any point or not.

Let’s get to it. I’m Laura Borichevsky, and this is Sex Outside.

Alina Drufovka:

Once I started getting into more alternative living, whether that's thru hiking or vanlife-ing, like I think it's a really natural progression to then question things like monogamy.

Laura Borichevsky (narration): 

Alina is a Colombian-American surreal painter and thru hiker currently based in Philadelphia who has studied polyamory fairly extensively, even traveling a bit to engage with other polyamorous communities. But she’s not alone in this episode. We also wanted to bring Alyssa Keegan, a certified professional whole person life and relationship coach who for years has been specializing in working with people currently in, entering, or exploring polyamorous relationship structures. And here’s what she had to say when it came to defining polyamory at a high level.

Alyssa Keegan:

The kind of easiest way to break it down is just in its root words. So we've got poly and amory and it's actually a mixing of Greek and Latin root words. Poly is the Greek, which means many and amory, which is Latin meaning love. So it's just “many loves” is the very kind of quick way to define the literal word. Where it gets really interesting is that there's a lot of different ways to do polyamory, you know, because there's lots of different structures. You know, there's a structure where it's a V and there's just one person in the middle and there's two separate people that aren't necessarily intimately, sexually related to one another. And then there's triads, which are also three people, but everyone is romantically and sexually involved. Then you also have quads and solo, poly and relationship on our key. You know, so there is a lot that you can get into as far as the structure of polyamory goes. Basically it's just ethical non-monogamy with the specific purpose of having more than one intimate relationship that may or may not involve sex.

Laura Borichevsky (narration):

We’ll be hearing more from Alyssa later on, but jumping back for a moment to Alina- because as you probably know, historically most people don’t learn about polyamory at a young age (which is, honestly, one of the reasons we’re having these conversations to begin with). But Alina was introduced to some of these concepts earlier on in life, and it allowed her to enter adulthood thinking more about how she conceptualizes her idea of relationship structures. 

Alina Drufovka:

You know, to be completely honest and transparent is that I do come from an immediate family that has a lot of divorce and adultery. And I didn't really see an example of monogamy working out. And I became very disillusioned by it from a young age, but didn't know what other structures were really out there. Cause that is what the dominant society does in terms of our relationship structure. And then my grandma who is great and a sex and marriage counselor, she gave me this book “Sex at Dawn”, which is co-authored by, um, a couple Christopher Ryan and his wife Cacilda Jetha. And that book really gives you that evolutionary perspective of humans, their sexual preferences. And that was really the first thing to open my eyes up to it. So I was actually just listening to his Ted talks because I haven't read the book in a few years, but you know, the starting point is really that humans from an evolutionary perspective and DNA are closer to chimps and bonobos than an African elephant is to the Indian elephant. So looking at their sexual behavior tells you a lot about humans. And from that point from reading that book, I just became really curious about polyamory, which then led me to these communes.

Laura Borichevsky (narration):

Also-- another quick definition here-- you’ll hear a few terms in this conversation like “intentional community”, “eco village”, and “commune”... all referring to the various group living spaces she’s visited and spent time in over the years. So I asked Alina about why and when we utilize these different terms. In short: it’s a matter of preference for each community.

Alina Drufovka:

I just follow whatever that community says. So for example Twin Oaks, they refer to themselves as an intentional community, which they really are the last standing community from the sixties when there was this big “back to the land” movement. So I respect what they call themselves versus communities I spent time with and Peru and Columbia, they both refer to themselves as eco villages and generally with an eco village, there's an environmental focus and community focus. And generally they at least strive to be egalitarianism. And then in Israel, there I only spent a few days, but that was a kibbutz.

Laura Borichevsky (narration):

As you may have caught onto by now, Alina’s traveled both domestically and abroad, spending time in various outdoor-focused communities that create a safe space for communal living and polyamory. And while every community is different, those that do offer visitor or work trade programs have a process to hosting guests-- as Alina found with her very first visit, the one at Twin Oaks.

Alina Drufovka:

I have these one month long visitor periods where you come and it's essentially a work exchange. So you work 40, 42 hours and then you get to live there and eat there and learn about the community. And they also have structure in terms of teaching you about the community as if you were applying to become a member if you wanted to, which at the time, you know, I was in college and I wasn't trying to join this community to live. I just wanted the experience. So that was really my first independent adventure in my life. But yeah, I took a train down there and they didn't even really tell me who was picking me up or anything. And so I got out of the train station, you know, with my luggage, I was like, well, how do I even know, like who's picking me up and I just saw this big white, large van with an older fellow who had all tie dye pants.

I'm like, “This has gotta be the guy”, which of course is super stereotypical. But of course it was. And yeah, then I just lived there for three and a half weeks. And it was super interesting because yeah, the majority of couples there were polyamorous and I was just fascinated learning all these older folks who have lived there, their whole lives, or since they were in their twenties and now they're 70 and they brought up kids in these polyamorous structures and, you know, people had drawn diagrams to try to explain to me all the different relationships there. And it was very gender fluid. Sexuality was very fluid there and it opened my eyes to a completely different world and seeing how it actually worked in real life, rather than just reading about it, theoretically through an evolutionary biology perspective or through a book, you know, this is the real world experiences of these people. And so that was super eye-opening. And when I left the commune, I very much was like, “Oh, this is like the lifestyle I could see wanting for myself”, but it's kind of been this constant struggle in my life of between, you know, whether that's living out in a commune or living out on the Appalachian Trail, how do I reconcile some of the things I learned in those communities and adopt them or not adopt them in my “real life”.

Laura Borichevsky:

Yeah. One of the biggest questions that I remember you asked to like, just out loud as a part of our conversation, when we last spoke was like, “how do I go about unlearning some of this? And is it actually possible to unlearn some of this?” because our views on relationships, sexuality, and, you know, monogamy, it's also deeply rooted. And it does take a lot of time too. Yeah. I mean, intentional is the word-- to like intentionally unlearn, and it does go up against a lot of the systems that have been put in place to uphold monogamy-- and a very particular type of monogamy at that too, which is very restrictive for folks. So it's a good question that you asked.

Alina Drufovka:

Yeah. I mean, like, I love the idea, like in the polyamorous community, they have this word compersion, which means the opposite of jealousy. So it's, if your partner's having, you know, an interaction with the new partner, you would actually feel happy for them instead of jealous, which to me is completely out of the realm of possibility in my brain. But I think it would be a really amazing experience to get to that in my human life here on earth. But again, I just, I don't know if it's possible to undo some of that socialization.

Laura Borichevsky:

Yeah, absolutely. Or like at what cost, right? Like how much time and intentionality and effort does that take at what costs like the rest of our functioning lives? Like how, how far into the woods do we have to go for how long to start unlearning that, you know, and you're a thru hiker, so you know better than anyone like, what you still don't unlearn even after being on the trail for weeks or months.

Alina Drufovka:

Yeah. I mean, I think that's like the common thread. Like once I started getting into more alternative living, whether that's spending time at communes, thru hiking or van life-ing, like just living in those ways in and of itself, you're challenging. So many of the structures of society and the value system of consumerism and being career-oriented. And once you challenge those things, I think it's a very slippery slope, like not necessarily in a negative way, but I think it's a really natural progression to then question things like monogamy.

Laura Borichevsky:

Yeah, totally. Well, and you said something that stuck out to me where you said, you know, one human will not satisfy us until the end of time and that's something that's continued to impact your life and like how you continue to view things. And it's very interesting because I was recently talking with a friend about polyamory and how there are certain ways our society seems to uphold polyamory as being completely “natural” and like “acceptable” experience. Like I jokingly was talking about how reality TV, like The Bachelor and The Bachelorette is a show about polyamory, but it's almost like as long as it's clear from the story line that it's in service of ending up in a monogamous relationship, polyamory is on the table. But as soon as it's in a way that someone, you know, is most comfortable and most embodied that they want to be polyamorous and they're in polyamorous relationships and that is the state that they want to exist in. Even if it's consensual, everybody seems to really bristle against that, which I find fascinating because in certain contexts, our society seems a-okay with it.

Alina Drufovka:

Yeah. I mean, to me, the idea of one person satisfying from the end of time is kind of delusional. But I guess for me, the question is like, does that have to look like sexual diversity or does it just look like having a really tight knit community and close friends that can satisfy some other components of myself and maybe my partner and I don't share dress. So yeah, that's a constant learning process, but yeah, it's tough because like you mentioned in the beginning, like outside of this commune life, I don't really know many people that live this way.

Alyssa Keegan:

You know, it was actually one of the things that I really struggled with. And one of the reasons why I chose to dedicate my life to being a life and relationship coach with a focus on individuals and couples who are curious about or new to practicing ethical non-monogamy and polyamory,

Laura Borichevsky (narration):

As you can hear, Alyssa Keegan is really passionate about helping folks who are navigating polyamory in one form or another through professional coaching. And it’s something that, honestly, is so, so needed-- as she herself can attest from firsthand experience.

Alyssa Keegan:

When my husband and I ventured into polyamory, there was not a lot out there. You know, there were some books like “Ethical Slut” is like a huge one, which is so great, but there were just a lot of books, but there wasn't a lot of community, there was no television or podcasts really out there. And it was a very lonely place. And we made a ton of mistakes in the early years because we were really making it up on our own.

Laura Borichevsky (narration):

Something Alyssa and I spent a good deal of time chatting about right away is ethical non-monogamy, which is something else intertwined in the world of polyamory. For many folks, on the surface ethical non-monogamy can sound identical to polyamory, but Alyssa explains the difference and why it matters.

Alyssa Keegan:

You know, I think a lot of people think that ethical non-monogamy and polyamory are synonymous and that's not entirely true, you know, and a really good example that I use a lot is the lifestyle of swinging that swinging is definitely ethical non-monogamy. But typically that type of experience is not one in which any of the partners are looking for intimate relationships or emotional connection. It really is about the sexual experience and sharing that with your emotionally monogamous partner. And so I think that that's, you know, one of the ways in which people can confuse ethical non-monogamy versus polyamory.

Laura Borichevsky (narration):

And speaking of confusion, there's a lot when it comes to polyamory and ethical non-monogamy, especially because of the lack of conversations out there, the biggest misconception of all:

Alyssa Keegan:

That it's all about the sex. You know, that it's just this amazing thing where, you know, you're breaking free of the monogamous structure. And so you've just got sex partners in every corner of your house, and it's just orgies every night on the chandelier. And you know, it is one of the fun things about stepping out of monogamy is this exciting adventure of bringing new energy into the relationship. And certainly for me, my sexual journey was huge when I began identifying and understanding that I was polyamorous, but that's like 10% of what it is to be poly. And the other 90% is the day-to-day life. You know, my husband and I have a child. So it's, you know, raising the kid and negotiating schedules and talking, talking, talking, talking about all of the super, not sexy stuff that makes you feel safer and a relationship or that you have to negotiate when one person wants to go out on a date, but the other person has this obligation.

It's the day-to-day life stuff. That is really what polyamory is for me, at least that's, I think that that's a little bit more of like a, what they call like a kitchen table, poly definition, which I certainly am. Like I said, there's a lot of different ways of defining polyamory for a lot of different people, but I think most poly people would say that 90% of it is about the day-to-day life and communication with your multiple partners and time management and organization and loving each other through all of that, that gets you to the juicy bits of being in the bedroom, around the chandelier.

Laura Borichevsky:

Yeah, well-- and it sounds like, every relationship, however it’s structured, are a lot of work, and so when you start multiplying that out by having different partners in a polyamorous structure, it does also, it sounds like multiply the work in some ways as well. Which is really interesting because you’re right, a lot of people don’t talk about that.

Alyssa Keegan:

Oh yeah. You know what I mean? I think that it can really help because you know, this idea of “it takes a village” is really great. You know, if you're in a structure like where all of the people are cohabitating or that want to be part of a family unit, it is the most incredible thing in the world to have an extra adult around, you know, there's a little bit of good and a little bit of bad when it comes to having to negotiate, you know, multiple relationships, like you said, when you think about just all of the things you have to do when you're dealing with one person, you know, multiplying that by two or three or five, you know, depending on how much time you think you've got in 24 hours, it is a lot, but it is really, really rewarding too.

Laura Borichevsky (narration):

Alyssa’s honesty about both the work and the reward behind polyamory-- the less sexy, even tedious or mediocre moments that help make this all work and reinforce trust and safety-- it’s a good reminder that, like any relationship structure, it takes work to make it happen. And-- just as importantly, perhaps-- that no one relationship type is for everyone. 

Underlining this point are some thoughts from Alina. As a current monogamist looking in with true curiosity, Alina often ponders the role of jealousy in a poly structure, which she heard a bit about during her time spent visiting various intentional communities.

Alina Drufovka:

Something though that I do try to, you know, remain critical about is my experience at Twin Oaks was super lovely and eye opening, but I do try to remind myself that, you know, these people I interacted in who are living this polyamorous life. Like the people left at the commune or the people that were able to deal with jealousy and compartmentalize that and live this life. But there's plenty of people that leave the commune. And I think for me, that became even more apparent when I was in Columbia, because I was in an eco village there for several months. And there were very few people there, which I wasn't aware of until I got there. And there were all these like beautifully built eco, passively built homes, but they were all vacant. And I remember asking one of the couples there, “where is everybody?”

And like, I was exploring the property and there were probably a hundred homes built out into the jungle that were very nice and no one was there. And through spending time there, it was revealed that originally the commune or eco village was created by this group of psychologists. And it essentially was an experiment in polyamory that didn't work out. And that's why there's no one left living there. So like I also, yeah, I don't want to idealize it either. It's really tricky. And it's one of those things you don't know until you're in it. You know, that's like what, my partner and I talk about a lot because like, we're not like actively polyamorous, but it's like, obviously when we met, we both entertained this idea for our future us on it. It's one of those things where you never know how you're going to feel about any of this until you do it,

Laura Borichevsky (narration):

Which is exactly why Alyssa often coaches on the one thing that is critical for folks in polyamorous and ethically non-monogamous relationship structures:

Alyssa Keegan:

Communication. The mode of getting your needs met within a monogamous structure, we've always kind of agreed upon is cheating, right? And you know, we all kind of agree that that's not great, but it's the acceptable standard. But what that doesn't really account for is you having a conversation with your primary partner about the safety of their body, right? When you cheat, you are not allowing your primary partner, the consent of the safety of their body. And that all comes back down to communication, right? “I'm not communicating that I have feelings or sexual desire for this other person. So I'm going to go do this thing without talking to you about it.” And not only is it unethical because I'm cheating on you, I'm, I'm breaking some monogamous, vow, whatever it is, whether you're married or just dating, if you've decided you're monogamous and you break that it not only is disrupting the relationship emotionally, but it is literally taking away your partner's ability to consent to what their body is exposed to.

And within cheating, I don't want to blanket statement this, but typically when you are doing unethical behavior, you're not talking to your partner, your cheating partner about safe sex practices. And when was the last time you got an STD test or HIV test, you know, those things are just less common because what you're operating in is in the moment. And so there's a lot of sticky situations that you can get into when you don't communicate. So I really think that like being ethical, the heart of it is communication. And the things that you've got to talk about are your needs, what your needs are, what your fears are and what your boundaries might be. And until you can get right with yourself until you can get to a place where you feel like you can have that conversation with your partner, you're not going to succeed in any kind of longterm way at ethical non-monogamy in my opinion.

Laura Borichevsky:

Yeah… yeah, and well knowing what those needs are… like you said, getting right with yourself and like what that even is to be able to try to express that is like, something that a lot of folks are still struggling with in their own sexual lives as well as romantic and emotional lives when it comes to relationships, so it does, it takes a lot of internal work it sounds like, and communication which is huge and also a challenge-- and also a lot of trust.

Alyssa Keegan:

Oh my god. So much. But I mean, again, it comes back to trusting yourself. Like a lot of my clients, they'll come to me with very specific things they want to work on based on their relationship. And what we start to uncover pretty quickly are the ways in which they haven't done a lot of work on themselves to figure out what the root of their desires are or what the root of their own fear is. And so we end up spending a lot more time on self-awareness and motivation in their own individual lives, outside of any relationship, just to get the foundation right, to get some clarity on why they want polyamory or ethical non-monogamy. Why do they feel like they need this? And a lot of people don't do the deeper dive. They think, “I'm attracted to other people. So I'm poly”, or “I want to be ethically non-monogamous and I'm just going to tell my partner”, but a lot of these things don't take into consideration all of the people that it can affect, you know, in the same way with cheating, the idea of, okay, well, we're going to be ethically non-monogamous, but we're going to do the don't ask don't tell policy, you know, and the first obvious problem with that is that it's a complete breakdown of communication.

But the other thing that a lot of people don't consider is that the other people that they're engaging with may or may not consent to being kept a secret, and they have rights inside of those exchanges as well. And I think a lot of people, particularly couples breaking out of monogamy into non-monogamy have a really central focus on themselves. They say like, “Oh, we've done the work together. We've created the boundaries that we think will make us safe”, but then they never even think or consider what those rules and guidelines that they've created together might have on the people that they choose to be with outside of that primary relationship.

Laura Borichevsky:

That's such a good point. And yeah, those boundaries, needs, desires-- are just as important. 

Alyssa Keegan:

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Laura Borichevsky (narration):

So-- communication is essential, especially inside a polyamorous relationship. But what about beforehand? For a lot of folks who currently have a partner, particularly if you’ve been committed to being monogamous for any period of time, it can be really scary to bring something like non-monogamy to the table, even if you want to consider what it would look like to approach it ethically. The stakes might feel high, too-- especially if you feel like bringing this up might hurt your partner’s feelings. So before you jump into a conversation, it’s always a good idea to make sure you’re confident you’d like to consider it, and be prepared to answer questions about what you actually want. Alyssa has some pre-work for you to consider and reflect upon.

Alyssa Keegan:

I actually work for an incredible collective of therapists at Fresh Path New York, and on their page, there is like a blog section where I actually talk about what is polyamory and is it right for me? And I posed some questions that you can take in download for yourself. If you wanted to ask yourself if this is something that you're interested in, why? So, you know, some of the questions that I pose in that worksheet is have I ever felt romantic love for more than one person at the same time? And how did I handle that in the past? You know, how important is having multiple partners in your life and why, like really taking the time to ask yourself the question about like, what is it exactly that I want out of this and taking a really, really deep look at that? How do I feel about the responsibility of caring for multiple partners and multiple, you know, like, as we were saying, you've got these second and third and fourth potential partners out in the world and how do they feel?

And are you willing to take on responsibility and time management and hearts of all of those people and to what degree? And that's exactly another question, you know, if I want more than one partner, what degree of intimacy do I expect from these partners and how much am I willing to give those partners in return? You know, as I said, with, with poly, there's a lot of different ways to do it. And there's some people who are in it for the long haul, they're going to have poly fidelity. They're going to find the people that they want and they're going to lock it down or they're going to have life partners. And then there's other people that are going to, you know, do loving, casual relationships where that's as much as those relationships are. And that is beautiful and perfect, but getting clear on what kind of relationships you're looking for, how deep of an intimacy level are you willing to give or want to give, and how much are you looking for in return?

You know, and then I think just circling back on self-awareness, you know, asking yourself how much are you willing to take responsibility for your own feelings, your own possessiveness, your own jealousy, your own fears, and being able to communicate all of those, including your desires and your needs with your partners, with all of your partners, to the degree that you've agreed upon that you want. So I think that these are the really important things that people don't take enough time to consider. And I think that in part it's because like I identify as polyamorous, I identify as bisexual. I am queer. But a lot of people don't perceive polyamory as an identity. They perceive it as a lifestyle. And I think getting clear on what it is for you and that if you do see it as a lifestyle, not just jumping into it, because you're excited about the idea, but really doing the hard work of going, if this is a lifestyle, this is going to affect my whole life.

Laura Borichevsky (narration):

Clearly, there’s a lot to unpack when it comes to polyamory. And for a lot of us, it might feel fairly new. But it’s important to remember that polyamory is one of many relationship structures that we as humans have access to-- so it’s not as far removed from us as you might have thought up until now. Many would say it’s a natural part of our biology, which Alina sums up with one thought she’s been reflecting on a lot lately from the book “Sex at Dawn”:

Alina Drufovka:

A great quote that I liked from listening to Christopher Ryan recently is this idea that we're not descended from apes. We are apes. And I think learning about ourselves through an evolutionary biology perspective can be really insightful and can rid ourselves of a lot of shame.

Laura Borichevsky (narration):

Thank you so much to Alina Drufovka and Alyssa Keegan for their time, resources, and honest thoughts in this episode. You can find Alina on Instagram @abstract.hike, and Alyssa Keegan @therealalyssakeegan-- both of which are linked in our show notes. And-- speaking of show notes! You’re going to want to check those out. Not only did we pack the show notes with all of the books and resources that Alyssa and Alina mentioned in this episode, but for folks who are interested in learning more from Alyssa, you can find some special Instagram Live content she’s been putting together on polyamory over at the Fresh Path New York Instagram, @freshpathny. This week she published a video on insights and things to know about coming out to your community as polyamorous, and there is a bunch of other content you’ll want to take a look at there as well.

And don’t forget-- you can catch full episodes of Sex Outside every other week on Thursdays, and on the opposite weeks, you can hear brand new Nature Quickies, which are short, 5-minute dives into specific, practical topics about our bodies and the outdoors-- so stay tuned to catch a new one next Thursday. In the meantime, please consider supporting the show by leaving us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts, making sure you’re subscribed, or by sharing this episode with a friend you think might like it.

We also have a pretty great merch shop online. There are shirts, stickers-- even underwear. To see what it’s all about, head over at sexoutsidepodcast.com/shop.

Music is by the Wild Wild, UTAH, and LWFI.

I’m Laura Borichevsky. Thanks for joining us. Until next time!

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